This is a long story but I don't think I can shorten it, I know the way out of my situation but no one will help so any advice from anyone out there would be really appreciated.

2 Years ago I had numerous credit cards no outstanding balances although huge credit availability on my cards, I have the same job and same mortgage. So where did it all change.

I managed to get planning permission to build a house within my garden, this was the time when we all watched Grand Designs and aspired to do the same. I couldn't wait to build and take this chance in a lifetime and do something I always wanted to do. I had planned to move in and turn my house into a buy to let.

RBS agreed to fund the project on a build roll up mortgage, in Jan 08 it started and they would release stage payments to me and I would sort out payments to the builders and the relevant contractors. As we headed to the 3rd quarter of 08 I could sense that the builders had problems, another project they were working on were struggling to pay them. I was not sure as to the extent and a lot of it was rumour but I had always negotiated with builders on each payment anyway. Suddenly in Oct 08 RBS decided they would no longer pay me and would only pay the builders direct. I advised against this but at the same time was scared they would pull the funding for the project as it was RBS making headlines everyday as they credit crunch really hit. I reluctantly signed an agreement to pay the builders, I didn't realise at the time the builders did have a petition to be wound up against them, I subsequently found this out from companies house.

This stage payment was for about £20k, this money was paid directly to the builders against my wishes even though I was made to sign the money directly to the builders or RBS would not have paid. A lot of this stage payment was needed to pay contractors, and supplies which were special orders. Consequently they didn't get paid. The contractors walked offsite and suppliers were going to retrieve the special orders. To over come this and to get the contractors back on site I had to pay them for the work already completed, also pay for the supplies and continue to fund the project ongoing. Far from ideal but I wanted the house finished, this was all extremely stressful and not exciting as it should have been in anyway.

A few months later after taking control of this myself I pushed RBS for the very last payment, I didn't want them to know about the builders in case they pulled the plug. They reverted to the previous method and paid me the last stage payment, why this change I don't know. By this time my credit cards had built up and continued to do so so I could get the house signed off. I have now put in a complaint to RBS to ask why they gave the money to the builders when it is MY land and MY build if I default then they take it from me but if the builders default I suffer.. This is a David and Goliath situation they made me sign an order to pay the builders even though I have an email saying it is not a good idea. They have refused my first request for compensation yet didn't answer my question as to why they paid the builders. I will go to the Ombudsman if I get nowhere.

To try and cut this story shorter - I have ended up with credit card debt of £54k two houses, and five rooms rented out to support my income and continue to fund this debt. At the moment I am paying the equivalent of over £15k pa interest on these credit cards . I have NEVER ever before this situation ever not paid of a credit card in full every month. Probably why the card companies had put my limits up so high and continued to send me credit card cheques through constantly.

If I could consolodate this debt to a sensible loan or even raise £10-20k I could really push to get back on my feet rather than constantly tread water. Because the cards are now maxed no one will lend me any money, no cards will let me apply for a 0% car to transfer which will make the difference, my mortgage company will not let me borrow any more due to salary mulitpler restrictions now implemented despite good capital in my property.

If I now sold the second house I would end up losing around £100k on the proposed value and this was my long term investment and end up no better off. I at least wide to ride the market crash. I was going to apply for a buy to let on completion but now lending criterias have changed they have lowered the LTV to 60% which will not help me.

Every way I turn I hit a brick wall, I HATE paying these card companies 20-30% I have phoned them all up asking for a rate offer. For instance my Barclaycards £20k would really make a difference if they transferred to their lifetime balance rate of around 6% for new customers but not for a 17 year loyal customer. I am trying very hard not to go down the IVA route, I have spoken to mortgage advisors but no one will help. All I need to do is swap the debt and I could save well over £1000 pm, I feel I am now going round and round in circles I know what to do but no one can help. I don't want to go to one of these debt companies who charge me to go down an IVA route which I don't want. I can afford the debt, only just but am trying very proactively to do something about it. Also why are the cards reducing my limits as they come down this continually makes my credit score look worse.

If anyone out there can offer any advice, not debt agencies I would really appreciate it. This situation is rediculous I could really speed up and reduce my monthly risk and not keep hitting my overdraft limit everymonth if I could just get a proper answer from someone. What should have been a chance in a lifetime is now a nightmare from hell.

Thanks for reading this long post if you got this far, there is a lot more to it, but I would need to write a book.

You say these are old credit cards - older than April 2007?

maybe getting all thier agreements might be an idea to help the money situation.

if you dont have them write a letter asking for your cca - there are templates of this and this can help if the agreements are unenforcible.

this is not really the answer to your problems but hey! if all your cards are maxed out!! & payments are a problem, its quite possible this may help.

I'm going down this route myself & for all my family as well (eledery parents) let me know if you need templates

Skinned

Hi

I have a feeling that many people are in the situation. I have some in-laws that built two investment properties and they ended up making a massive loss as the bank forced them to sell at a loss.. This was outside the UK, but I suspect the bank would threaten proceedings if you stopped making repayments.

If you do not go down the debt amanagement/IVA route, then complaining to the FOS about the behaviour of RBS would be sensible. I would also suggest that you get your local MP involved and ask them to write to Stephen Hester. Perhaps the CEO of RBS would investigate the matter and if they have made a mistake, make an offer via your MP to help you.

Huckster

Hi

Yes the cards are older than 2007 what difference does this make? I am not sure what you mean asking for my CCA?

I have checked the rates on all the cards and they have all gone up when interest rates have gone down. The excuse they offer is that the cost of borrowing has gone up - what absolute rubbish. They only reason they have gone up is because they have put the rates up!!!!

Why don't these companies wake up, if they lower the rates then they wont have people defaulting and everyone wins!!!

JA1000

The Consumer Credit Act was amended in 2006, with new amended act coming into effect from 6/4/07

If the credit cards were issued pre April 2007, the Consumer Credit Agreements (CCA) must contain certain details that would allow a court to make them enforceable. By enforceble this is that a court would be able to grant a creditor a CCJ.

There are some CCA's that don't contain the necessary details to make the agreement fair to the consumers in the eyes of the courts and therefore cannot be enforced. Also a lot of companies are not good at record keeping, so may not have your original signed agreement to be able to go to court.

By requesting copies of your CCA's, you can see whether they contain the necessary details and if not challenge the companies regarding the enforceability of the debts. This is an example letter you could send. Enclose a £1 postal order or a cheque from some one else - don't send anything with your signature on and don't sign the letter, send recorded delivery. The reason not to sign with your signature, is that some may scan your signature and apply to documents. They have 12 working days to provide the agreement, which must conform to the requirements of the act. if it doesn't, it may not be enforceable.

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Dear Sir / Madam

Re: Account No: XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX

With reference to the above account, I would be grateful for a signed copy of my executed Consumer Credit Agreement.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79), I am entitled to receive a copy of this agreement upon request. I therefore enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

I also understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

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It is worth doing this and at the same time, involve the FOS and your MP as I mentioned in my previous post. The requests for copies of your documents, will help anyway.

Huckster

.

The saga continues

Today on my return home from being away I am greeted by a letter from those nice people at RBS who we own a little more of each day to say

SHOULD WE NOT RECEIVE SATISFACTORY PROPOSALS OF REPAYMENT WITHIN 17 DAYS THE ACCOUNTS WILL BE BE PLACED WITHIN THE HANDS OF THE DEBT RECOVERY DEPARTMENT.

So I'll try and pull together £170k together in 17 days that will be easy. They have also addressed the letter to 'Firm of JA1000' (but my name) I am in no way a business or ever have been.

JA1000

You need to start challenging RBS by going on the attack. RBS would be silly to start any form of enforcement action whilst you have an ongoing complaint with them. A referral to the FOS may tie this up for many months, as at the moment the FOS are apparently overloaded with work.

In regard to your credit cards, send the letter in post about to see if they hold agreements with you that are capable if being enforced in court.

Huckster

Thanks for your help

I have already tried to make contact with my MP, I have written to the bank to ask for action to be suspended whilst investigations are carried out. I have noticed on the transactional account which was used to pay builders etc it ended up £167 overdrawn I paid this 1 month after a statement which only arrives every 3 months. They are now chasing me with a court order for the £15 plus £30 costs without even telling what the outstanding amount was, I couldn't guess but only used a figures from the statement. This is now getting very silly but I could lose my house.

Regarding the CCA I guess I am still not clear on this, if I get it what do I look for and what can you do with the information?

JA1000

JA1000

If you look on the internet your MP should have some contact details for their office.

Although in your earlier post you mentioned you did want to involve debt management, it may be worth seeing an advisor at Citizens Advice. Also if you live in England & Wales Community Legal may be worth contacting for advice. See http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/

I don't understand the court order bit. Are you saying that they have already been to court? Did you defend the action or did they obtain a judgement by default?

In regard to the CCA request process, this is a process that is covered under the consumer credit act 1974. You first request a copy of your agreement you entered into (sending letter in earlier post) and then if they fail to do that within 14 days, you then send them a chaser letter. If they don't supply a copy of your agreement, this makes it difficult for the company to enforce in court. If they cannot enforce in court, although the debt is technically still owed, you could sit it out, until the 6 year statute barred period kicks in, when the debt cannot be collected. If the company does provide a copy of the agreement, you could then check that it contained the relevant details to make it enforceable in court. There is a very good guide on the Consumer action group site on this topic. If you do a google on Consumer credit agreements, you should see a search result -Consumer Credit agreements, a guide to enforceability. This is worth having a read, so that when you receive a copy of your agreement, you know what to look out for.

My advice is to send the letter contained in earlier post to request copy of agreements first and then post back to advise on progress. There are a number of posters to this site who can advise you further. You can find a lot of information and letter on this sites debt forum pages, as well as on the Consumer action group site.

Huckster

Huckster

Thanks for this, I will get the letters sent off. The court order arrived in the post at the weekend totally by surprise. For an amazing £45 on and over draft I had paid. There was £15 interest accumulated between the statment (which arrives every 3 months) and the 4 weeks later I paid. The other £30 is for charges.

I emailed RBS and asked all action to be put on hold whilst the complaint is investigated and asked for a contact number to discuss this £45 there was no name apart from my contact on the letter.

I also phoned the FOS and registered the complaint, I was advised I should have done it sooner, yet they advised last time I phoned to give the bank a chance. Oh well

Also today I got hold of my MP and have a meeting booked with him on Friday. I have to try everything just need to work out what he can do. It is only because RBS are owned by the tax payer do I feel I have a right.

Hi. I agree with everything Huckster has said. However, from my experience, the section 78 CCA request is a bit of a red herring. Credit card companies will send you anything they like and argue black is white that they have complied with s.78. In July I did my S.78 requests, I'm still awaiting replies from 2 of my creditors, the others have sent a mish mash of documents, none of which are compliant with the CCA 1974.

The point I want to make is that as well as doing the s.78 request I would do a Subject Access Request under the DPA 1998. It will cost you a tenner but its definitely worth it. You mentioned a 17 year old Barclaycard - I took mine out in 1992 as well. They responded very quickly to my s.78 request my simply providing a copy of a dodgy looking set of t & c's from 1992. They argued vigorously, as they do, that this was compliant, all they had to do to comply with s.78 and my debt was fully enforceable. I didn't do the SAR until the beginning of September and amazingly one of the documents produced was the original application from 1992. All of the necessary terms needed to make it enforceable were missing - so uneforceable in the courts (we all hope!).

I would definitely do the SAR.

Hi Brooooooooooce

Thanks for your further information regarding the CCA - What I am not too clear on because of all my problems that I haven't had chance to look at the forums. What happens when you prove all of this. Do you risk not paying or what. Unfortunately I am someone who is happy to pay everything I owe but I just don't like being ripped off so does it reduce the cost.

Forgot to add to my earlier posts, I have complained to MBNA about reducing my credit limit as I pay off the debt because of this. Have they replied of course they haven't. What else have they done. They sent me a nice letter with 4 credit card cheques attached on an account which I only have £200 credit. Do these people not read the newspapers this is just a joke.

Hi

This CCA is the first step I think (costs only £1) and after 12+2 days another letter then another one total of 30 days or so then send a letter to say there is a dispute

The SAR (Subject to Access) costs £10 each and can also be another way if no satisfaction is got from the CCA offer, it shows that you have tried all exhastive ways to get information.

Always keep a file of all communication & all envelopes received, If any tel calls are received insist all communication will only be done in writing.

It is an uphill fight but may help give some breathing space - once the account is in dispute and they have not complied - legally they cannot charge any interest.

Beware this will mess up your credit history but maybe that can be sorted out alongside by keeping the credit companies informed and perhaps asking them not to divulge any of your data to anyone - this can be done they have to comply (under the data protection act) there are templates for a letter of this sort as well.

This is a long lengthy process but hey - they aren't just going to take it lying down - may even get some debt collectors ied - but without an enforcable CCA - nothing can really be done by anyone in a court of law.

I've done 15 cases since early september for myself and all my family members and am still at it - letter writing - recorded deliveries - trying to get advice - etc...

NEVER SIGN ANY OF THESE LETTERS JUST INTIAL THEM WITH THE CARD HOLDER'S NAME the letters do not legally need to be signed (there are some very naughty co's out there who get up to tricks)

Just make sure all and any tel calls are logged & recorded from your side - if you get them - may prove useful later if you pusue for harrasment.

The first Step a letter I sent all of them that I think were Pre April 2007 as below hope it helps

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MRS. Cardholder’s Name
Cardholder’s Address
Address
Post Code

Customer Services Management
CREDIT CARD COMPANY'S NAME
Address
Address
Address
Post Code


DATE:
SENT VIA HM POSTAL SERVICE - RECORDED DELIVERY BR xxxx xxxx xxx

Dear Sirs,
Re: Credit Card Agreement No: xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx
This letter is a formal request pursuant to Section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request the provisions of Section 77 will apply.


If it is your view that you are not the creditor, Section 175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by Section 189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.


Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR). I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00 (Postal Order No: xxxxx xx xxxx xxxxxxxx), which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.


Please also note that in accordance with the law, if you do not forward a copy of the agreement within twelve days then you may not take any steps to recover payment of what is alleged to be owed until you do comply with my request, and that this is not an acknowledgment of any alleged debt. I trust that this will not be the case and look forward to hearing from you
Yours Faithfully,
Cardholders Initials (Not Signature)

Cardholder’s Name in Print

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Skinned

Hi Huckster

Make sure ALWAYS to include

" this is not an acknowledgment of any alleged debt"

somewhere in your correspondence in the future.

Skinned

When you get time you should spend a hour or two looking through the posts of people like Stubie One, Basa 48, Huckster and Con Man Killer - you will find enlightenment!

Back in July when I started this, I didn't imagine that I would end up defaulting on my credit cards and in all probability shaft my credit rating. But I have done. Take my Barclaycard as an example. I did my s.78 request - they sent me bug**r all, just some terms and conditions from 1992. I tried to push them for a proper reply - a proper agreement like the act says, but they just fobbed me off. I messed about for 6-8 weeks, when I should have SAR'd them right at the beginning.

I sent them a SAR on 1.9.09 and they replied by the beginning of October. What the SAR showed was that incredibly they had an original document from 1992. I discussed with people on the forum what it contained and all agreed it was unenforceable. What I had to then get my head around was the consequences of stopping payments. When you read some of the blurb put out by Claims companies who talk about 'getting your debt written off' the reality is much different. You can't even get your credit card companies to reply to letters and on the rare occasion they do, most replies are not meaningful based upon questions you have asked - but they just send templated letters.

I decided to take the bull by its proverbials and cancelled payments. I have done this in the full knowledge that whilst my credit card company may not be able to legally enforce the debt i.e. take me to court and obtain a CCJ, they are still going to pursue me. And they do. Phone calls, plenty of them. Initially they bothered me, but now I've got a bit of script together (along the lines of you won't get a penny off me unless you produce a legally enforceable agreement and if they say they have one, when I know they haven't, I tell them to take me to court). I also signed up to BT's choose to refuse service and number withheld rejection.

Up until now, I have never missed a payment on any of my cards - but the nail for me was MBNA. I'd just come off a 0% deal and they whacked me with a interest of 30%. I tried to speak to them and they just fob you off saying thats there 'normal' rate and it's just tough. That to me is legalised robbery - except for them to actually get away with it they have to be acting legally i.e. they have to have the legal right by having a fully complaint credit agreement. MBNA last week wrote to me saying they couldn't find my agreement because it was taken out in the early 90's. The law (the Consumer Credit Act 1974) is the law. I have spent some time moralising about what I am doing but I'm putting my wife, children and home first - if others who contribute to these forums wish to maintain moral superiorityand the moral high ground - then they are welcome to it!

The only downside is that these companies don't think the law applies to them. Consequently they rarely reply within the prescribed time frames and will argue vehemently that they are right and you are wrong. Don't think that the Information Commissioner or Financial Ombudsman Service will come to your aid - I don't think they will. From what I have read they seem to take the side of the credit card companies - rather than the strict legal position. But thankfully the law is ultimately on your side and I think they know it. Read some of the threads, people aren't being taken to court, pursued for the debt yes, but not through the courts.

Best of luck.