Hi again,

Another update:

I got another letter in from the ccc's legal services place yesterday. They make no mention whatsoever of the letter I sent them advising that the account is in dispute and they cannot take action while this is the case. This letter states that they are now preparing to take action and that I have one last chance to call them etc. I don't have the letter with me right now, so that's just the jist of it.

I'm also still getting calls despite saying I would only correspond in writing. I just don't answer any more.

What should I do now?

mennie

Mennie

Is the latest letter a threat only or are they going to take you to court? Does the letter mention the word court?

I suspect they may be preparing to sell your debt onto a DCA, realising they are getting nowhere.

Not sure what the smart move is here. Perhaps Basa or one of the others will advise.

I would personally go to see CAB advisor to find out whether it would be worth offering to pay a token amount per month. Would this help your case if they took you to court?

Huckster

menvor:

Hi again,

Another update:

I got another letter in from the ccc's legal services place yesterday. They make no mention whatsoever of the letter I sent them advising that the account is in dispute and they cannot take action while this is the case. This letter states that they are now preparing to take action and that I have one last chance to call them etc. I don't have the letter with me right now, so that's just the jist of it.

I'm also still getting calls despite saying I would only correspond in writing. I just don't answer any more.

What should I do now?

mennie

Sounds like a standard template letter again.

I'd really like to get clear in my mind what it is they sent you as their agreement.

How many documents or pages did they send?

Did it have 'application' anywhere in the text?

Is there any box where you could have signed?

Does it mention credit limit, interest rates and repayment details on the form?

Edit: just quickly re-read the thread and early on you said the 'agreement' they sent contained your credit limit and account number. Was the credit limit your current credit limit or what could have been the original credit limit?

You could reply with this:

Dear Whoever

Account ref No. xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx– In Dispute

I am in receipt of your letter dated [date]which I find to be unnecessarily threatening to the point of harassment.

As you know I dispute this alleged account and do not acknowledge any debt to your company as thus far you have produced to me no document that can be determined to be a credit agreement let alone a properly executed one. In respect of that I would advise you that I am prepared to travel to your offices if necessary to inspect any such document as you may be required to produce in a court to substantiate your claim. Alternatively you could supply to me a copy of a fully compliant credit agreement that bears my signature. This is a perfectly reasonable request under the CPR.

In the meantime, I know of no legitimate cause of action in English law that confers a liability to pay sums of money based simply on account of "requests for payment" (whether repeated or not). Consequently until such time as you produce to me a properly executed credit agreement for this account my position remains the same that I am not liable to make further payments to your company.

You are of course free to take such action as you think fit, be this a court action to decide the rights of the parties to this dispute where you will be held to strict proof of your claim, or to supply me with the documentation asked for above when I would be glad to enter into meaningful correspondence regarding a realistic affordable figure as a full and final settlement offered WITHOUT PREJUDICE OR LIABILITY SAVE AS TO COSTS in the interests of all parties concerned.

Regards

Note that the offer of 'full & final' is just to show willing should the case end in a courtroom (which I doubt) or in the very slim chance they come up with a compliant signed agreement (which I also doubt).

Most of us on here have seen this sort of thing loads of times, don't forget they aren't trying to be fair , truthful or honest, they just want your money and will do as much rule bending as they can get away with. Have you checked through the other threads?I think Kree is going through something similiar and there's some good stuff on there.

Sorry menvor-there's some really useful stuff. Even if it isn't appropriate now, it's good to paste it into your armoury.

menvor:

Hi again,

Another update:

I got another letter in from the ccc's legal services place yesterday. They make no mention whatsoever of the letter I sent them advising that the account is in dispute and they cannot take action while this is the case. This letter states that they are now preparing to take action and that I have one last chance to call them etc. I don't have the letter with me right now, so that's just the jist of it.

I'm also still getting calls despite saying I would only correspond in writing. I just don't answer any more.

What should I do now?

mennie

Hi Mennie,

What did the letter actually say - exact wording.

Typically, these letters are full of intimidating stuff with little or no substance.

Look for words like "may" or might" or " could consider" - these are meaningless waffle.

If they say "will " or "are" then this is more serious.

The exact wording of the threat to court is important.

S

Thanks for the replies everyone :)

OK, so here's what the letter says:

NOTICE OF IMMEDIATE ACTION

We are planning immediate action against you. As we previously informed you, this may include passing on or selling your account to an external DCA for failing to come to an arrangement to pay your outstanding debt. In one final attempt to avoid this action, you have one last opportunity to repay this debt by calling us immediately to discuss payment. Call us with your offer on 0845......

This is your final chance. Failure to take action may have serious consequences.

This one has me worried, I must say. Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,

mennie :)

menvor:

Thanks for the replies everyone :)

OK, so here's what the letter says:

NOTICE OF IMMEDIATE ACTION

We are planning immediate action against you. As we previously informed you, this may include passing on or selling your account to an external DCA for failing to come to an arrangement to pay your outstanding debt. In one final attempt to avoid this action, you have one last opportunity to repay this debt by calling us immediately to discuss payment. Call us with your offer on 0845......

This is your final chance. Failure to take action may have serious consequences.

This one has me worried, I must say. Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,

mennie :)

Why on earth are you worried? For my own part I would be happy if my creditors would take me to court. At least that way it could all be laid to rest!

The letter is another bluff and bluster - 'We are planning' (well thanks for the heads up!), 'may include passing to a DCA' (groans - another bunch of meaningless threats from an even more meaningless scumpany), 'one last chance', 'final opportunity' (WTF get ON with it FFS!!!).

It is my opinion that you have a complete defence. A signed agreement that already has a credit limit and account number ? Is that possible?

Edit: I forgot to point out there isn't one mention of court !!?? Did you leave it out or wasn't it there ?

I know how easy it is to read into something that isn't really there.

IMO they're just getting desperate. You must not get into a similar frame of mind. Chill .... you really have nothing to fear.

Mennie

Is there no way you could even borrow a digital camera and photograph what they have sent you as an agreement. If you can transfer an image onto your PC you can edit it to remove personal info. (if there is any), upload it to photobucket.com (free image hosting web site) and link to the image here.

We really could do with sight of the documents to be able to comment more accurately and advise accordingly.

Agree,

There is nothing in that letter that should cause any alarm.

These people are expert at sending letters that sound menacing whilst having zero real content.

Basa is offering free ice cold lagers ( I think I read the post right:-)) so take him up on the offer and relax. This is just meaningless waffle.

S

For effect, could Mennie take a photocopy of their letter and write in big black bold letters across it:

UNLAWFUL - This account is in dispute, and send it back to them.

:)

Sparky

(PS sorry if this isn't helpful, but it might make Mennie feel better).

Thanks for the advice everyone, you are all really putting my mind at ease :)

I took snaps of the cca page they sent and the link to photobucket is below. To clarify some things on both images, since they are hard to make out:

cca side 1:

At the top right corner of this page they have my credit limit (I really don't remember if this is my original credit limit, as I *think* it may have been increased by the ccc a couple of times - not at my request, but one of those "good news, we have increased your credit limit" letters. I may be wrong here, as this may have been on my old, different, card from years ago). My name and address is on the top left, standard letter format, really.

cca side 2:

The top of this says CCA REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

Between us...... and you the customer named above on the t&c set out below and overleaf.

The *only* part on this sheet where there's a space for a signature is under the Form Of Consent heading (right hand side) which gives a box to tick for purchasing PPI and then a part to sign, stating: I understand that I am purchasing the product(s) ticked above on credit provided by you and that the terms relating to the credit for the products can be found at section 15 of this agreement.

The only other mention of a signature is where it says at the end: Before signing this agreement: and then says to be sure the info you have given is true, you've understood the t&c, you're over 18, and you request a cc from the company. There's no space for any signature as you can see.

Finally, the enclosed t&c leaflet mentioned in cca side 1 was just a generic t&c leaflet that they send out now and again.

Here's the link. Sorry for the lack of quality, but hope it helps.

http://s838.photobucket.com/albums/zz305/menvor/

Have a great evening, everyone.

Mennie :)

It certainly does help, a great deal in fact!

Just a couple of questions. These were separate documents or two sides of the same document? Was side 1 dated as it reads as a response to your CCA request?

As it stands it is no more a valid credit agreement than last weeks shopping list!

My guess is that these are two sides of the same agreement - I got one of these too.

The reality is that this is a fully compliant agreement. However, it is not YOUR fully compliant agreement.

In order t ohave any value Crap 1 would need to be able to produce one of these documents with your signature on. Can they? I doubt it.

I'm guessing that the charge structure in this document refers to £12. This came into force in April 2007 when the OFT statement relating to credit card charges was published (the OFT will not investigate charges of £12or less).

If your "agreement" pre-dates April 2007 than this statement is different. They are hiding behind a very loose interpretation of the document copies regs (its also a flawed interpretation, and they know it).

CPR requires that the original signed document be produced to a court where a creditor seeks a judgement in enforcement. At this point they would fall flat on their faces because they would be unable to produce said document.

They are relying on customers not knowing the difference between an enforcible agreement and an enforcible, executed agreement (your signature!!!).

In order to enforce at court, they would need the latter, this document is the former and is worthless as a result.

S

Hey,

OK, so I'm guessing that this is kinda *good* news, in a way.

To answer your questions, basa: Yes, these are two sides of the same sheet. Also, side one was dated as the date of their reply to my request.

Stubie, my 'agreement' definitely pre-dates 2007. In fact, I think it may be as far back as 2002 when I first got the card from them.

What would be my best response to that last letter from the legal services place?

Thanks again, you are all making my life a *lot* easier at the minute!!!!

mennie :-)