menvor:

Hey,

OK, so I'm guessing that this is kinda *good* news, in a way.

To answer your questions, basa: Yes, these are two sides of the same sheet. Also, side one was dated as the date of their reply to my request.

Stubie, my 'agreement' definitely pre-dates 2007. In fact, I think it may be as far back as 2002 when I first got the card from them.

What would be my best response to that last letter from the legal services place?

Thanks again, you are all making my life a *lot* easier at the minute!!!!

mennie :-)

Definitely good news.

As Stubie says, whilst what they have sent maybe a copy of an enforceable agreement, it most certainly is not the agreement you might have signed originally.

The final proof is that they have dated the document they've sent to you as the date of reply to your request.

QED it is not the orginal agreement dated 2002 (or sometime similar).

Hi again everyone,

Hope you have all been well and the ccc's haven't been dragging you down too much. Well, as you may have guessed, there's an update on the status. The day before yesterday I got a letter from a DCA (not the legal services place from before). This is the first correspondance in any way about this matter in about a month. So, best get to what it says, I guess, and hope you have some ideas on what I should do next:

This letter is to advise you that your credit card account (ref xxxxxxx) has been referred to us to manage your account in all matters relating to collection. This may include:

1.Personal visits by our doorstep collection agency

2.Possible litigation.

It is our aim to ensure that a suitable payment plan is agreed and maintained. Our team of negotiators will assist you in finding a plan that will clear your indebtedness, without the need for further action. If you are not in a position to settle this account in full you need to contact us to discuss a solution. Contact must be made by 03rd Oct 09 either by phone or in writing. If contact is not made by this date your account will be passed to our solicitors.

No contact will mean further action.

Any ideas???

Thanks,

mennie :-)

menvor:

This may include:

1.Personal visits by our doorstep collection agency

2.Possible litigation.

Our team of negotiators will assist you in finding a plan that will clear your indebtedness, without the need for further action. If you are not in a position to settle this account in full you need to contact us to discuss a solution. Contact must be made by 03rd Oct 09 either by phone or in writing. If contact is not made by this date your account will be passed to our solicitors.

No contact will mean further action.[/I]

Mennie

May and possible = May or possibly not do anything

The bit that concerns me here is the inconsistency in the paragraph above. Finding a plan to clear your indebtedness and then asking you to contact them if you are not in a position to settle this account in full. They make threats, then there is the helpful bit about the plan and then more threats.

The letter is designed purely to worry you into phoning them, which of course you should not do. The solicitors will just be the same staff sat in their offices who will send you a letter in a different 'trading style' name, to highten the pressure.

If they cannot find your original signed agreement to enforce in court, they will probably avoid that, just in case you defended such action.

It is up to you what you do next. Ignore them and see what letter they send to you next. Or send the same letter as you have sent before, which is contained in this thread, posted by BASA. I think the letter makes the point about them not having the original signed agreement to take any enforcement action. Also that all communications should be in writing only.

If I were a betting man, I think you may get one last letter from them and then they will sell the debt on. Then you will hear nothing for ages and then a new DCA will write to you.

Huckster

Hi there,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what type of letter I should send them, though. Wouldn't it be a different one if this is a new company? I'm assuming it should be something explaining that the account is in dispute with the ccc and stuff? I'm not sure about not replying at all in case they send someone around to the house or whatever. I've also heard stories of dca reps phoning and / or calling to neighbour's houses to ask if they know the person they're dealing with etc. Any suggestions would be great.

Also, if I send them a letter would they then send it back to the ccc or would be sell it on to another dca? Surely the ccc will have sold it on to the dca at a reduced rate, so if the dca then sold it on to yet another company wouldn't it be at a further reduced rate (to the next company). Or maybe I'm totally wrong. Just wondering how long this could drag on and how many different companies I'm likely to be hassled with until it (hopefully) fizzles out.

Thanks,

mennie :-)

Mennie

The letter you need to send them is one that says that you DO NOT acknowledge the debt as being owed. Provide them with a history of your communications about this matter with previous companies, advising that you have not been provided with a valid copy of your CCA with the OC. Advise them that if further contact is received from them without providing any evidence of the debt being owed in the form of a valid copy of the CCA, then you will refer the matter to the OFT and Trading Standards.

My understanding of what happens when debts are sold on and on, is that each company adds on extra amounts. So an amount of say £100 owed to company A, may be sold to company B for say £25, but company B would demand say £150 . Then B would sell the debt for say £50 to company C and company C would send you a demand for say £200. So each time the debt is sold on the amount owed grows. Some of these companies may send you offers such as, if you pay half of the debt owed by X date, this will be accepted as settlement of the account. The offer could well by more than the original amount owed.

This matter could drag on for years, even beyond the 6 year statute barred period. What you will find is that as the debt is sold on, the tactics of the different DCA's will vary. Some have self employed collection agents who could visit your home address, just to increase the pressure. But in the main, most operate as an outbound call centre, with the process including standard letters. So if they are unable to contact you, they will send you are range of letters. After a period of time, if they are getting nowhere and cannot enforce the debt, they will sell the debt on.

So my advice is to send a letter by recorded delivery, confirming your current position. If they ignore you, atleast you have evidence that you have written to them, if you needed such evidence in the future.

Huckster

Hi there,

Well, I didn't send a letter to them in the end, but decided to wait it out and see what happened. I have just now received a letter from their legal dept. which says that the dca has appointed them on behalf of the ccc and states the following:

TAKE NOTICE!

Unless this account is paid in full or a satisfactory proposal for settlement is received by 17th October, 2009, court proceedings may be issued against you without further notice. In the event that court proceedings are necessary, further costs will be added to the debt (a total of £165 for court and solicitor's costs). Interest will aslo be added, accruing on a daily basis.

If judgment is obtained against you, enforcement action will result in further costs and fee being added to the debt.

Payment must me sent without delay to the following address......

I really need to send a quick reply to these guys, so any ideas what course of action I should take or what I should send them?

Thanks so much guys,

mennie :-)

menvor:

I really need to send a quick reply to these guys, so any ideas what course of action I should take or what I should send them?

Thanks so much guys,

mennie :-)

The letter sounds like their last throw of the dice, before they give up and sell the debt on.

Not much to add to my last post. The company that have sent you the last letter need to understand the history of this. I would send them a letter by recorded delivery, saying that you do not acknowledge owing the debt and that you would defend any such action. Give them a summary of communications with previous companies and enclose copies of any previous letters you have sent.

If the company concerned cannot get hold of your original signed agreement, following your letter, I would expect them to sell the debt on.

If they did take you to court it would give you the opportunity to make them prove they have an enforceable agreement and if they did find one by magic, then you could come to an affordable payment plan.

What you don't want to do at this stage, is pay anthing or admit to owing the debt, as they will then have their claws in you, making any recovery proceedings easier for them.

Huckster

Thanks for the reply. Does anyone have any idea how likely it is that this will actually go to court? Or how likely it is that they'll send a doorstep collector around to the house?

mennie :-)

menvor:

Thanks for the reply. Does anyone have any idea how likely it is that this will actually go to court? Or how likely it is that they'll send a doorstep collector around to the house?

mennie :-)

Ask yourself the question. If you have not made any payments on the account since January 2009 ( guess based on your first post to this thread) , why have they not taken legal action so far? Is the original CCA missing? Or do they have so many outstanding accounts, that it would cost too much to pursue, so it is more pragmatic to sell the debt on. Some of the debt companies may send doorstep collectors to visit you, but only to badger you. They have no right to visit your home without your invitation.

If you are getting a bit fed up of the hassle of debt weighing you down, you really need to think about whether the current course of action is getting you anywhere. The debt will continue to exist and will grow as interest/fees is added. You have a long time to go until it becomes statute barred.

If you want to arrange an affordable payment plan, why don't you contact one of the following as suggested in an earlier post to this thread.

http://www.payplan.com/

http://www.cccs.co.uk/

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

I think if I were in your position I would get some professional advice and then decide on my next step. Arranging a payment plan may take away some of the fear you have, that there is a debt collector lurking around the corner or having to face going to court.

Huckster

huckster is quite right. Unfortunately the debt doesn't go away. But as huckster said it is now almost certain they realise they cannot enforce this debt. As time goes on and the debt changes hands over and over again the chances of any of the DCAs being able to lay their hands on YOUR compliant agreement become even less to the point where you can treat these letters just like any other unsolicited trash mail and put 'em in the shredder for recycling!

Guess that sounds like I am safe enough for now. Should I send these current people a cca letter and say the a/c is currently in dispute with the original ccc?

mennie

menvor:

Guess that sounds like I am safe enough for now. Should I send these current people a cca letter and say the a/c is currently in dispute with the original ccc?

mennie

Personally I would think this would be a good idea, so the company realises what the score is. If they think you are likely to defend and have any knowledge, they might not push their luck. I think if you did nothing they could ( remote but poss) try their luck in taking this to court, in the hope that you would not defend, so would get a judgement by default.

Perhaps Basa or someone else with knowledge in this area, may add their comment.

Huckster

Just trying to remind myself .. did we ever get to see a copy of this agreement? I seem to recall some photos of it, or was another thread? (Brain going and I get lost!!!).

Anyway, assuming we are dealing with an unenforceable agreement in the hands of a DCA try a letter like this:

Account Ref: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I am in receipt of your letter dated [date] and note its contents.

As you will be aware, credit card agreements are subject to the requirements of CCA 1974 and in relation to that legislation I have requested from [CCC] a copy of the executed agreement for this account that bears my signature.

To date I have received no document that constitutes a legal liability to make any payments regarding this account. I am of the opinion this lack of a compliant document would be a complete defence at law to any action to enforce any alleged debt.

Until such time as [CCC] provide a document consistent with the true expectations of the relevant legislation I will continue to acknowledge no debt to [CCC] in respect of the above account.

You are of course free to pursue whatever actions you think appropriate, but [CCC] and its agents will be put to strict proof of any claim and documentation pertaining thereto.

I would respectively suggest you refer this matter back to [CCC] for clarification of this prior to proceeding further with any intended legal action.

Regards

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply. I've been quite ill over the last couple of weeks, but better now :-) I never managed to get that letter sent off while I was sick, but guess it could go in response to this one?

You're right basa, there were photographs, in this thread actually. But it wasn't a signed true copy.

I actually got another letter in from the dca a couple of days ago, which said the following:

Dear Miss xxxx

It is apparent that we need to start the litigation process to resolve this matter. You are aware that we have communicated with you over a period of time to resolve the matter without the need for legal action. Your case will be processed and passed to our solicitors around 20 October 2009, a process that you can stop by calling us to discuss your account and reach an amicable solution.

We are open to suggestions from you on how this account may be settled, and if you contact us before 20 October 2009 we can offer you a settlement figure on your balance. You now only have to pay £xxxx.xx to clear your account.

I trust that you realise that my appointment is an indication of the imminent commencement of legal proceedings and that you will take this opportunity to contact us and save yourself the expense of litigation and the problems that any litigation in which we are successful will have on your credit file.

Has anyone ever had anything like this before? The figure they suggested is still *way* over what I can afford at the minute, so that's no use. However, I did think of calling them and suggesting a different figure, just to get rid of the problem. Thing is, I assume that if I suggested a figure and they didn't accept it, would they then have me on record as recognising the debt?

Any suggestions on where to go from here?

And a side note:

Thanks all who have helped me so far. You know, when this first kicked off I was really scared, almost depressed and suicidal even. But all of you who have helped me through this on this thread, have made my life so different. The first few weeks, I could hardly breathe. I had never been through anything like this before and when a letter arrived my chest tightened so hard, my eyes welled up, I was distraught. Now, because of you all, I've been able to take it in my stride and not worry so much. I am SO grateful to you for getting me this far. THANK YOU!!!!!

mennie :-)

Mennie

Hope you are feeling a bit better. Don't let this get to you, it is only money. This recession is going to catch a lot of people out and it will take years for companies to wade their way through all the paperwork. If they had your original agreement, they would have sent you a copy and would have taken legal proceedings months ago.

You could choose to do one of the following.

1)Send the letter contained in Basas' last post

or

2) Arrange an affordable payment plan either writing a letter yourself with offer of payments 'WITHOUT PREJUDICE' or getting help from organisations such as Payplan, CCCS or Citizens Advice.

or

3) Send a 'WITHOUT PREJUDICE' full and final settlement letter making a lump sum offer, based on what you can afford. see the following link, which has information on this and includes a specimen letter. http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/debt_factsheets/full_and_final_settlement_offers.php

It is important that you only deal with this matter in writing using letters headed 'WITHOUT PREJUDICE', sent by recorded delivery. This will protect your position, as the companies could not use these letters against you if they took you to court. You should certainly not phone them, as they could use certain techniques to get you to agree to something, which in normal cirumstances, you would not agree to.

Hope this helps. Stay strong.

Huckster